Saturday, October 31, 2009

Decon: 8 - Holy Crud, we just won/one!!! (hmmm?)

This hit me like a gigantic ton of bricks about 10 minutes ago. I had to sit down and get this written out. You know my approach by now, it all about agreement and mind games. This one is HUUUUGGGEEE. Knock it out of the park. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

OK, enough of that already. What is it I am talking about?
If you have been reading my posts, you know that I say that I am a nullist. It is an even more powerful position than an atheist. It is a position of affirmation not of denial. It is coming from a position of "I believe in the null god" instead of saying "I believe in no gods".

I am not going to repeat myself in this post. If you need you can read more by going to looking for the tag nullism(maps to all my null god articles).

====Ok so what is the big news!!

I will let you see if you can figure it out for yourself. I bet you will get a big grin when it hits you too.

1. The strongest atheist position is the null god.
- Atheists say there are no gods, basically gods=0 (saying like in math )
- the nullist, takes an even stronger position and says gods=null
- sort of like an variable before a number is put into it.
- but that still is a specific value.
read my other posts. NULL is very, very powerful position. Way better than zero.

2. This part is not as important, but becomes important in later defenses
-Null value is sort of like the value infinity.
-it is both plural and singular at the same time.
-so if you say null god or null gods, you mean the same thing. null is null.
-null x 1000 is still null. Null +1 is null, null/1 is null, null/0 is null.

3. null god is the same as non other, not others, no others.
that is different from none. None means 0. Others mean 0 and all other values.
so if you say others, you are covering 0 and all non-zero values
an easy way of defining others is the range of assigned values.
what is the NOT(others) or what is the opposite of others?
Which comes back to not assigned, nothing, not assigned or null
not other is the same as null.

if you haven't quite got it, I am still not going to tell you my answer
but you might catch it from the next clue.

4. The bible says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exd 20:3)

... pause for dramatic effect ......

Now pick yourself up off the floor. Oh, wait not everybody got it.

Let me state this in plainer language.

5. We atheists now love the first commandment.
Well it repeated in all 3 versions of the 10 commandments of the bible
and it says this statement in all 3, almost exactly.
best of all, most versions, get it very close.

Let me re-write Exodus 20:3 for effect, but I like the original text unchanged.
"Thou shalt have ... no other gods ... before me."
"Thou shalt have ... null god ... before me."

6. This line now should make total sense why he would later state
"for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God" (Exd 20:5)

7. The bible already claims that the null god exists (3 times)

8. and you are supposed to put the "null god" AHEAD of their god.

I guess being forced to be in the number 2 position would make their god jealous.

I love this stuff. I hope you all have fun with this...


Thursday, October 29, 2009

Decon: 7 - Heretics and Infidels

This probably one of my favorite topics. It does not pack the same punch as some of my other Decon routines, but carries a very sharp edge. I would recommend folks use this carefully and you can get dramatic results. Use it aggressively and you will only get an argument.

Let me restate the concepts of deconversion again for new readers.

1. People did not get their religion by argument, you are not going to deconvert them by arguing with them either.
2. One of the most powerful words in the English language is the word AND.
3. You listen to what they have to say
4. You agree with them by saying "AND"
5. Then you mess with their mind. (see my other posts for more ideas)

*Also, one critical part to this process is to understand an old saying
"If I say it, it might be true, BUT if they say it, it MUST be true"

Most Christians consider them selves good Christians, godly, pious, and all kinds of religious words that make them feel warm and fuzzy.

You job here is to make them look at themselves and find out they they are those things AND MORE. Did you catch that. I said "AND". We are not going to argue that they are not the things they mentioned. We agree with them. After all that IS how they feel and how they look at themselves.

Remember our goal is deconversion. Not to make them feel bad about themselves, or to show how smart we are, or how bad they are, or anything like that. Our goal here is to simply open their eyes to themselves and to acknowledge some things about themselves they may never have thought of.

We have only one objective today. To open peoples minds and show them where they are closed. No decision is being made, only awareness being raised.


--- we are not trying to trick them or anything
--- it is just nice that you are honestly talking with someone
--- in a caring and friendly way

ready to begin....

* tell me about how you got into your faith?
* what do you like about it?
* what places have you attended services?
* did you have a favorite pastor, priest, celebrant, rabbi...

... now you have begun some friendly conversation
... you have shown genuine interest
... you have shown you are not confrontational

-- result should be that they have their defenses down
and are willing to engage you in honest conversation


- we are not going to try to trick them or build great rational arguments
- this decon routine is probably one of the softest in the most recent posts
- the softer you approach this, the more caring, the more attentive you are
to the other persons mood and defensiveness the better your results should be.
- my routines assume you are working with a christian

FYI-some definitions for you to know(do not need to cite to other person)

heretic - a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field
heresy, unorthodoxy -a belief that rejects the orthodox tenets of a religion
heterodox - characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards
apostate-a person who abandons his religion, party, cause, etc.
heathen: a person who does not acknowledge your god
Infidel (literally "one without faith") is an English word meaning "one who doubts or rejects central tenets of a religion or has no religious ...
Infidel-A person who does not belief in any particular religious system.
Blasphemy is the use of reference to one or more gods in a manner considered objectionable by a religious authority.

List of world religions ( )

Aladura Asatru Bah'ai Faith Bön Buddhism Cao Dai Chinese Religion Chopra Center Christianity Christian Science Confucianism Eckankar Epicureanism Falun Gong Greco-Roman Religion Hare Krishna Hinduism Islam Jainism Jehovah's Witnesses Judaism Kemetic Reconstructionism Mayan Religion Mithraism Mormonism Neopaganism New Thought Rastafari Scientology Shinto Sikhism Stoicism Taoism Unification Church Unitarian Universalism Wicca Zoroastrianism

--the above are not for you to quote, but to help you learn some religion names.

====Continuing the conversation

..let's continue...
* Would you say there are at least 50 different major religions in the world?
* how many would you say there are?

* What is the difference between an atheist and a theist?
* would you say you are a theist or an atheist?
* would you say that being a theist or atheist is black and white, either/or ?
* since you are a theist, that means that you believe in the Mayan gods right? no?
* so your not a theist about the Mayan gods?
* What about the Greek gods? you totally believe in those gods? right?
* So your not a theist about those?
* What about the native Indians, or Chinese Falun Gong? not these either?
* didn't you say you were a theist?
* That must mean you have to accept all these, because your a theist, right?
* So your only a theist for the specific type of god you believe in?
* So if you believe in many gods your a polytheist, if only one a monotheist
* So you don't believe in those others, just the one - a monotheist, right

* All right let's roll back a few minutes
* You previously said that there were over 50 major religions
* and as a mono-theist, you think at least 49 are wrong and don't believe in them
* right 1 out of 50? lets come back to this later?

* alright let's change the subject slightly?
* what do people call some one who says there are zero, absolutely no gods?
* an atheist. right?

* how many Mayan gods do you believe in? zero?
* so you are an atheist with regards to the Mayans?
* so what about all those other religions? zero of those gods too?
* so you are atheist about those too?

* so let me get this straight, you are only a theist about your specific god.
* so the math here is 1 god out of 50 gods, right?
* so that is 1 of 50, or 2 out of 100. That is 2%.
* so as you see it, you are 98 percent atheist, and 2 percent theist?
* is the math right there?

* alright, lets change the subject

---note we don't want to stay on this subject
---we want them to move on quickly and not try to talk themselves into/out of anything.
---We want them to think about this stuff at home, when we are not around

---This routine is a soft pitch
---so far all we wanted was to get them to agree to the math of 1 out of 50
or 98% atheist/2% theist.
---we want to change the subject very quickly after that
---we do not want to start them talking about how they are not an atheist, 2% means this, or that, blah, blah,...
---Get them to say the number AND CHANGE THE SUBJECT, that is all.

lets continue ...

* Look it was just some numbers, I am not saying you are an atheist
* Actually, I wanted to talk about something else.

* I wanted to go back an talk about one religion, the Islamic stuff
* since you said you specifically don't believe in that, do you know that the official term is for someone like you? Infidel.
* Infidel is not a bad thing, it just means you are outside the Islamic faith?
* so you are an infidel right? at least for that religion.
* what about the other 48, infidels there too? right?
* so you are an infidel to 98% of the worlds religions? Thats ok.
* Not very many people can figure out how to be in more than about 2 religions at a time.

* alright, this is getting kind of weird. let's change the subject.
* I want to talk about something you are more comfortable with - christianity.
* according to the web, there are something like 10 major forms of christianity?
does that sound right? stuff like Catholic, Amish, Eastern Orthodox, etc.
* and they say there are some 30,000 or more denominations.
* does that sound high or low to you?

* I am not going to do that percent thing again
(don't have to, they will do it silently in their head to themselves)
* Christianity is really built around an us and them idea.
* Our faith is going to heaven, those other people are going to hell
* we are saved, they are not. we should try to save them - well some folks say that.

* what is the official religious term Christians use for someone not in your specific faith. It's a heretic, right?
* it is important for people in a church to be all in agreement on their faith.
* churches don't like people making up their own stuff or going off in other directions. What do they call that? Blasphemers or blasphemy. Right?
* so the official terms we are working with are heretics are folks outside your faith, and blasphemers/blasphemy is for folks not following your specific faith.
* is that right?
* so how do all the other Christians around the world view you?
* do you all believe exactly the same, killing live chickens and all that?

* so if I am getting this straight, there are over 2 billion Christians, and they are not all agreeing on the same thing, right?

* well this has been an interesting discussion.
* I have to get going in a minute or so.

* let me summarize this before I go.
* you are 98% atheist, billions of your fellow Christians look at you as a heretic, and every time you talk with someone about your faith, you are officially committing blasphemy or are a blasphemer.

--Keep going here... don't pause... they will try to interrupt and defend

* sorry not trying to call you names or anything, just looking at official religious doctrine.
* don't you think religions could try to be nicer to each other?
* it's like we have it right, you have it wrong, you others are going to hell.
* At least that is how it seems to me. Does it seem like that to you too?

---here is a little mind game (tread lightly please)

* I think I would have trouble sleeping at night knowing that billions of people thought of me as a heretic or infidel.
* I mean, I know you think of yourself as a good solid christian, with great morals and a solid belief in god. right?
* to billions of people around the world you are a heathen, not even willing to worship their god as the true god.

-- keep it going don't stop here...
*So really, you are a solid 2% theist, at least as far as Christianity is concerned.
* at least you have the solid foundation that you are a true theist perfectly in sync with 1 out of 30,000 denominations.
* Christianity is not one big faith, it is about believing in the right way.
* I bet lot of Amish or Russian orthodox would not say you are going to heaven.
* so you think of your self as a 2% theist,
the rest of the world sees you as something like .0003 percent theist.
--(it is actually a lot less than that, but this is not a math lesson)
--we are talking to ordinary folk and already way too much math

* You want to hear something funny
* lets get rid of the percentages, way to confusing.
* they say there are over 6.7 billion people in the world
* and considering the numbers we just talked about

* I looked up some odds (
* did you know that if I were to place bets on you being an atheist, heathen, infidel, blasphemer, or committing blasphemy
* you would lose against:
* actually getting killed by lightning(not just getting struck),
* or dying from a part falling from a plane and killing you.

* most people think to themselves "I am a theist. I am not in anyway an atheist."
* but even you, we just went through the math, you are 99.9999% atheist.
* I hope you can hang on to that last little thread
* hold on tight to that last little bit that is not atheist
(man that is a subtle, but powerful statement to the subconscious)
* you will right?
--you just go them to agree
that they are holding on to the last little bit of them that not atheist
--did you get that. they just agreed in their mind they are almost a full atheist.

* well, its been great chatting with you. Hope to chat with you later. see ya.


Just think about where we were when we started
This person probably thought they were a rock solid 100% christian
now they realize the are an outsider to most Christians
they realize they are an outsider to most other religions
they realize that all the terms they use to apply to others now apply to them
they are heathens, infidels, heretics, etc
- they probably had those words saved for the atheists
- uh ...
- wait ... uh ...
they just said those words applied to them. They just said they were infidels.
Heck they just said they were 99.9999% atheist
and were barely hanging by a thread to their own theism.

Nice job - from 100% theist, to 99.999% atheist in under 10 minutes.
Give yourself a hand.

Hope you all enjoyed this ...


How could god prove himself to me

I have heard this question many times on many places podcasts, blogs, forums, and I thought I would put my thoughts into this with a concrete definition.

The answers to me for this were relatively easy to think up. The answer I am going to give here would not all happen at once, but over a period of time and would occur multiple times. Most importantly, it would be noticeable and observable by large groups of people from all sides of the world. Plus, such events need to be observed by a large group of scientists, magicians and skeptics who can agree on the non-naturalness of the result. Most importantly, it would have to be shown that this feat was not possible with any technology, otherwise it is just a trick or a con.

I would like to see a smiley face on the sun and I would like to hear all kinds of cool reports from scientists trying to come up with explanations that don't fit any known science.
I would like to see a pulsar rock out the beats to "We will rock you", in chorus with other pulsars, filling in some riffs along the way.
I would like to see someone hold a pen laser shine it, and float some dust in air, and see the laser light beam move into cursive spelling of a famous line from Shakespeare
I would like to see a series of rocks animate in plain site into live animals with more mass than the rock
I would like to see a person who I know grow 1 foot taller or shorter in a matter of minutes in a healthy and life enforcing way.

It does not have to be those things specifically,
but it would have to be a combination of breaking laws of science

For example:
show me something in chemistry that is impossible
show me something in physics that is impossible
show me something in astronomy, or math that is impossible
show me something where chemistry goes into physics in an impossible way
(show me water (h20) freeze into dry ice (co2)... chem + physics
show me biology going to chemistry
(how about an animal turned into a pillar of salt)

Since I come from evolution being true and not by a god,
I would like to see some cool non-evolution stuff that only a god could do.

I would like to see some animals and plants made with absolutely no DNA, RNA or other earthy biochemistry, but created instantly in front of everyone. Then it stick around so we can work with it, and study it, and enjoy it.

Do this in plain site, testable, repeatable where scientists and magicians are getting a good look.


I will give it some serious consideration.

There is just so much technology out there that we don't yet understand or have experienced. I would want to be sure that this was all non-natural not technological.

at least that is where I personally stand right now...


I would love to hear some other folks ideas.

Wednesday, October 28, 2009

I have some free tickets

I have 2 free tickets that anyone can have. There are 2 destinations depending on your preference. You have to arrange for your own travel. The tickets have a lifetime satisfaction guarantee with no expiration date.

I don't want to say exactly where they are yet. I want to tempt you with some delicious photos and descriptions. The names of the places are not real interesting, but once you read about it the names won't matter.

Destination #1.
Lets start with some photos.

The location is beautiful. The clouds, the fresh air. Surrounded by beautiful white landscape.

The whole place is just breathtaking. I mean you just get this feeling inside of its immenseness.

As I said before, the location is just awesome. You can tell by the way I am talking there is a "but" coming up here. Yep, you are right. It's not a deal killer, but the neighbors are interesting.

This place has some really talented neighbors. They spend a lot of time singing and really have a strong religious faith. I think if you come from a religious background, this place will really feel welcoming.

I have an idea of why their is some much singing and some much religious gathering.

The sights are beautiful and the singing will bring tears to your eyes. It is some of the most wonderful sights and sounds, even the smells are wonderful.

Sorry, I can't tell you the name of this place, but you might have guessed it.


Obviously, this place is a lot different. If you don't like the cold, but love swimming, sailing, sightseeing this might be a better place for you. You definitely don't have to dress like the first place.

And really I think you will find that variety of colors, smells, sounds are so amazing.

Just think about going out at night for a dip in one of the most beautiful lakes ever written about.

You have so many things to see and do. The daytime, the night life. The places you can go and visit.

The natural beauty with water, fire, earth and air are amazing.

They put on such parties and shows here. Some of the best entertainers in the world come here. But even the locals put on awesome shows.

People here have some great weddings and will spend the rest of their lives together.

There is much more I can say but I bet you have figured this on out too.

Well before I tell you the both locations, let me see if your thoughts are in the right direction.

Destination #1
* White and snow everywhere (no green or other colors hardly noticeable)
* Singing and carols and other songs
* Pine or christmas trees
* freezing cold
* The soldiers were there (also dressed in white)

* you might be thinking north pole
* maybe staying at a military base or barracks
* maybe staying at an ice station

Destination #2
* beautiful day and night time
* awesome displays of nature with water, fire, earth and air
* world famous lake
* fire dancers, singers, celebrity's
* bright colors
* when you go out of the light into night sky some spectacular views

* I bet you are thinking Hawaii aren't you?
* maybe if not there, one of the other islands that has volcano's and stuff

Well let me get the tickets out so I can tell you the exact names of these places.
I told you the names are not what you would expect, but you might be close

I can't really read these names on this tickets. They are kind of smudged.
I can read the book that came with these, it tells how to get there.
I am not really sure, I see several names listed.
Let me look in the book that I got.

Alright folks after all this, I feel embarrassed.
It took me an hour to write this posting and when I went to read the tickets
and write down the names I can't even get that clearly.

Maybe if someone reading this might have the same travel book I do they might be able to write me back and tell me the proper spelling of these places so I can update this post.

The book I have is not a Fodors travel guide.

It is put out by a company in Britain (I think)
called king james

the book that I am using
is called

I just love messing with peoples minds.

Let me restate the concepts of deconversion again for new readers.

1. People did not get their religion by argument, you are not going to deconvert them by arguing with them either.
2. One of the most powerful words in the English language is the word AND.
3. You listen to what they have to say
4. You agree with them by saying "AND"
5. Then you mess with their mind. (see my other posts for more ideas)

Have a great day ...


Decon: Series for ordinary folks

I just wanted to post that my deconversion (decon) series is written for ordinary folks on the street or in the churches. It is not written as material for expert arguments or debates. If a person is a well versed scholar or theologist, they are best directed to debates experts.

Decon series is written as conversational dialog and questions exchanged between some ordinary folks. It is also written as a hit and run type of approach designed to help deconvert as many people as possible in the shortest time possible. For folks looking for deep insight, it would be a good idea to direct them to sites with deeper intellectual and theological content to satisfy their deeper deconversion needs.

The key to decon as I often state is all about getting agreement and messing with their minds. Finding cracks, creating cracks, and making cracks bigger in the belief systems of those we work with. The actual content being used is really not relevant, except I ask folks to approach this with care and respectful.


Make them always use the name of the god they mean.

Never let anyone say "god". Make them always use the name of the god they mean.

They need to differentiate between Yahweh, Elohim and El Shaddai when they speak about the bible.

If them say they are all aspects of the same god. Even if that is their belief, then it is extra important that they specifically tell which aspect they are coming from.


Tuesday, October 27, 2009

Decon: 6 - Heaven is not what they think

There are a handful of major anchors that establish the TRUTH to a christians faith. In these deconversion routines, we look at many of them. Today, I want to look at a really big one. Heaven.

Before I go into heaven, it is important to understand that heaven is not about what you might think. It is about security. It is about having a safe, secure, comfortable home. Surrounded by people like them, like other people they know and love. It is a place that they can wrap around themselves like a nice warm snuggly blanket with the words LOVE printed all around it. Love, warmth, security, friendship, a secure home after you die, a place to rest.
They really feel the get a lot, but they also realize there is a price for this. The price is believing (faith) or doing some good deeds (acts) or some combination of those. And there is an additional cost after they die, there is one more cost that is to continue to worship and sing praises.
I think if you talk with most christians this should cover a majority of it. Each religion puts its own spin, a little more of this, a little less of that, your forgot to mention this. But this is still the essence.

Let me restate the concepts of deconversion again for new readers.

1. People did not get their religion by argument, you are not going to deconvert them by arguing with them either.
2. One of the most powerful words in the English language is the word AND.
3. You listen to what they have to say
4. You agree with them by saying "AND"
5. Then you mess with their mind. (see my other posts for more ideas)

*Also, one critical part to this process is to understand an old saying
"If I say it, it might be true, BUT if they say it, it MUST be true"

======Let's look at heaven and what it means to a christian
I want to remind readers, this is not supposed to be a scholarly debate. We are not looking to be experts and citing facts, presenting tons of evidence and trying to convince them to see things our way. Show them that we are right and they are wrong.

We have one mission here deconversion. Deconversion is a process that takes a while to achieve. We are planting seeds, or putting cracks in the solid foundations of their minds, which ever metaphor you like.

The key to the heaven deconversion routine is to first understand and build an image in your own mind of what they are likely thinking or feeling heaven is. Many people don't have a clear vision of heaven, just a feeling of what it will be like. Most people have not spent much time on biblical scholarship, or if they did, it was likely tailored, filtered and spun into the local propaganda of their faith.

Let's start with helping you the reader create an image of what the person likely thinks heaven is like. I am going to put a little more into this description, because I have a feeling the folks you talk with will only have a subset of this. And many may only have a feeling, so this image may help you see/feel what they feel.

Physical Description (this is what they may think, not from the bible. Bible later)
* Their is a single heaven
* "heavens" is a location, not a quantity
* it is "up there" somewhere (i.e. not on earth)
* maybe angels on clouds, pearly gates
* Gold, silver, jewels and other fancy decorations
* lots of white
* beautiful music in the air
* beautiful smells, warm air with gentle breezes

Some folks they might meet
* parents, grandparents, cousins, uncles, etc
* friends from school and old neighborhood
* friends from church
* a bunch of other people just like above,
but belonging to other christians.
* St Peter, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, other saints
* Other people they read about in the bible
* great religious and social leaders
* and some others that don't exactly fit those categories

What is their experience going to be like when they get there
* see all above people and the place described above
* they will live in that place
* when they die they get to be with their spouse again
* pets did not come here, but probably went someplace nice like here
* the aches and pains of their bodies will be gone
* They will look and feel young and vibrant
* All the racism, inequality, oppression, classes, segregation will be gone
* everyone will be happy
* everyone will get together and sing and praise
* they might be able to come back to earth as an angel and visit their kids/grandkids
* they will be in a place filled with pure love
* their will be pure, perfect love, forgiveness
* their will be much rejoicing and dancing

Heck, I bet we would all love someplace like that. But, that is not the case at all. That is a fiction by Hollywood, writers, poets, gospel singers and so forth. No we need to get the facts.

These Christians, when they die, they have to realize that they would be going to heaven that is in the bible, not the hollywood version. Hollywood did not exist back then. No the bible is the source of truth, of fact. So let's help them discover the facts (he he he) (man are they in for rude awakening)

Now that you have a picture in your mind, somewhat similar to theirs. We have a place to begin.

Here we go....

I bet you believe in heaven?
Which ones do you believe are real and which ones aren't in the bible?
Do you believe they are all real?

* When god destroys the old heavens and the new heaven is exactly 1500 miles wide and high, where do you want to live?
* When you die and you are no longer allowed to be with your wife or family any more and heaven goes to war, are you going to be in the mounted army or unmounted army?
* Do you think god could have given you armor for you military uniform instead of linen?
* Considering 80% of the criminals in the US prison system are christians and will be joining you in heaven, How do you think they should be treated when one steals from you or kills one of the others in heaven?
* What kind of punishment is given to someone who sins in heaven? They have already been judged, they don't get judged again. No double jeopardy.
* since heaven is so often under violence and for so long, why do you think it was not better fortified?
* do you think singing praise is good way to keep peoples minds off all the violence?
* Since you know it is possible to sin in heaven, documented many times
* Do you think all the christians will find joy in having to move from heaven to heaven to heaven, never being able to settle down
* Why do you think god could not provide his people a safe home to live in a wonderful joyful eternity?
* what kind of joyful songs do you think the people who live in many heavens that been built, destroyed in violence, rebuilt, and destroyed again and again sing?
* Do you thing it is easy to feel loved and connected when the bible says you are like the angels and no longer with your wife and loved ones?
* Do you think your family was taken away from you in heaven so you would not be distracted from your singing praises.
* In Matthew, when Jesus clearly gave his mission statement to not be coming to create peace, but to tear families apart, do you think that was to prepare people for the way heaven would be when they got there?

(alright we have hammered the security/insecurity enough. there is so much more of this in the bible, but we have other parts to bring out)

***Singing Zombies (I love this part)*****
* It is stated over and over and over again in the bible that when the resurrection happens people will be in their physical body.
* since you are not on earth and their is not trees or farm animals what kind of alien food do you think your dead body will eat?
* You dead body has a spirit jammed into it, but it is still dead. A lot of people think, they get an overhaul to get that "new car smell" of when they were younger, but it is still that same old body, just prettier.
* Do you think they take your body away and give you a clone to make it look younger, or do they do actual bodywork and try to roll back the odometer?
* With the younger looking dead body you are wearing around up there, do you think it comes with a warranty? Of course that model comes with out pain installed, but what about if you get hit by a 16 year old skateboarder and he knocks off your arm.
* The bible still gives you a human body, not a cartoon body, or a superman body.
* What do they do with the dead bodies of people in heaven that die in heavenly battles?
* if you are immortal in heaven and can't die, what kind of wars are you having. Are you just messing with each other, breaking each others stuff.

*** something just is not right here

* you get to heaven, and it is not the hollywood image you thought.
* all the singing zombies, constantly having to move, the sinning, the annoying neighbors, the prisoners living next door, your wife making friends and ignoring you.
* It all starts getting to you, who do you complain to?
* If you are not singing and PERFECTLY happy with the status quo, you are an outsider and heretic here.
* and now you want to stir up trouble?
* Your wife and that good looking, fit angel look cute together. I don't think that late dinner they had together means anything. After all, she is not with you, remember.
* I know you talked to some of the saints. Yeah, they have access to one of the gods here.
* Oh yeah, remember, when your here in heaven, if one god is busy, you might be able to book an appointment with one of the other gods here. Christianity has quite a few gods in the bible. That is good to remember for cases like this.
* You might have to bribe some folks to get a meeting with one of the gods.
* It is clearly stated that in heaven you have personal possessions and some folks have a lot and are rich here, and some are poor here.
* If you have some good business skills, you should do ok for yourself
* Now all that singing and praising going on in the background, you are going to have to drown that out so you can have a conversation, how do you think you can drown that out?
* The praising and singing that is going on. Do you think that god is singing along those tunes when he is killing babies, shooting fire, killing all those people every year, inventing new diseases and so on.
* Do you think the gods shush people down and tell them to be quiet when he has to do his daily killing and vengeance and wrath.

I could go on and on here. There is so much in the bible.
Let's come back to the purpose here. We are not trying to run a lecture and teach them stuff. We are not trying to convince them stuff that we know. We are not trying to give them exact quotes and give them accurate scholarship.

We started this for the purpose of helping them with their deconversion. The "heaven" talk is a hugely powerful part of their foundation. Based on what we covered here, I think the topic was hit about 50%. I think they will still be fairly strong on the heaven topic when this is done, but I will hit this again later, to give it the solid strike it needs. This may be solid enough coverage for some, I will leave that for you to decide.

I just want you to remember, our objective here is to get them curious and thinking about topics in the bible. We don't want to give them answers, we want to give them questions. We want to give them doubts.

We also would like for them to want to come back to us and have a further discussion about their beliefs. We on the other hand, want to change the subject when they come back and start on a new topic. They don't and can't get the satisfaction of us helping them with their beliefs. It is important that you give them a homework assignment from the bible that they have to prove something to you. Only one heaven, not many or how many times is heaven destroyed, what is the most violent thing to happen in heaven, whatever.

We want them investigating that heaven is not like their Hollywood fantasy. The more they look up, the more controversies, the more contradictions they will find. They start to trust some stuff but become skeptical of other stuff. That is what deconversion is all about.

Hope everyone has fun with this ....


Monday, October 26, 2009

Decon: 5 - Talk to christians about zombies

This is a fun one. Zombies are a critical part of the christian faith, but something they don't talk about much. I think you should talk with them about it.

This is my fifth article on the fun ways to help Christians deconvert.

I will first restate my basic premises for my deconversion system.
1. People did not get their religion by argument, you are not going to deconvert them by arguing with them either.
2. One of the most powerful words in the English language is the word AND.
3. You listen to what they have to say
4. You agree with them by saying "AND"
5. Then you mess with their mind. (see my other posts for more ideas)

KEY PHRASE (referenced later)
*Also, one critical part to this process is to understand an old saying
"If I say it, it might be true, BUT if they say it, it MUST be true"

De-conversion #5. Talk with Christians about zombies

First, you may be saying what does talking to Christians about zombies have to do with the bible - everything. Ever hear of someone rising from the dead? Thought so.
But that is not it, there is so much more in the bible to have fun with.

Pre-Setup (or a little background before we start)

First, you don't just jump right into conversations about Christians and their personal beliefs. You actually start a little distance away from that topic, getting their agreement along the way. Then once they have agreed with you for the last 5 minutes, you slightly alter the course. Presto - the gears of their minds are so messed up.
Some key points to start out. Once you unleash the finale, you have to walk away or change the subject. They will want to debate with you and challenge you. You might think that they are trying to change your mind. They really are not, they are trying to get their thoughts straight and get their footing replanted.
It is VERY VERY important that you leave them hanging in disagreement with you and not arguing their point out loud with you. You want them to be fuzzy for while, that is going to let the cracks ripple through their brain causing all kinds of trouble. Remember, our objective was not to convince them about zombies, our goal was to get them beginning down the deconversion path. Also, remember this one point is not going to get them completely deconverted.
The objective in deconversion is that it is a process, it takes time. People have a lot of thoughts laced through their heads. It affects, their marriage, their kids, their work, their politics, their friendships, and so much more. Think of each deconversion like a hit on a giant gong. It reverberates loudly for a really long time throughout the entire person.
Some research you need ahead of time. I would really recommend you rent/download/watch the movie "Death becomes her" starring Goldie Hawn and Glenn Close. It is going to be a powerful tool because it is a zombie movie that is not in the typical genre recipe.

Here are some short notes on that movie if you want to get a early start with folks and have not seen the movie. But will not compare to actually seeing the movie and knowing the quotes and quirks. Even if the other person has never seen it.

=====Notes from "Death Becomes Her"
From: from a review
The film centers on the eternal quest for beauty and youth by an aging Hollywood starlet, Madeline Ashton, (played by the brillant Meryl Streep). Her high school rival, Helen, (Goldie Hawn), brings her latest beau to meet Ashton after a campy performance in a musical based on "Sweet Bird of Youth" (get the theme already?).

When Madeline runs off with Helen's fiance (Bruce Willis) Helen falls into a demented state and becomes obese and determined to get even with Madeline. After discovering a secret potion sold by a Hollywood witch (Isabella Rosellini) both Helen, and later Madeline regain their youth, vitality, and beauty. However, all this comes with strings involving immortality.

Some of the key points you might mention from this movie
* Zombie caused by a secret potion
* Immortal
* Helen: hole through her midsection
* Madeline: with a twisted neck
* eternal quest for beauty and youth
* dressing nicely
* no weird diet

The setup
Here we go. The key to this deconversion routine is the mostly in the setup phase.

We start with a normal conversation about movies. Talk about any area you like. Eventually, maybe after a minute or two, you get to the topic about zombie movies. Some of the things you might talk about are:
* whether they like horror movies
* what do they think about zombie movies
* what was their favorite zombie movie (or one they remember most)

Now we want to ask some preliminary questions, but be careful not to tip your hand
Better to play it a little dumb and get them to give you definitions
Especially get them feeling they are talking from the movie perspective.
* what is the difference in zombies vs. vampires?
* Aren't they both dead or undead?
* What would happen to a zombie once it was created, would it die, it is undead
* Is it written anywhere what zombies eat, although movies like chasing people does that have to be always true.
* what if an undead Climbed out of the grave because the "earth rumbled"
-don't say "rose from the grave", Rumble is keyword we use later
* What if they were undead by a potion like in the above movie
* would it matter how they became undead- virus, bacteria, potion, magic
* would they still be a zombie if was a curse or spell
* who makes zombies. Are they supposed to be evil or neutral
* A zombie is not good, right? (notice how this sentence is built slightly different)

Now we have one more set of questions we are going to use for the finale -
To really get their brains cooked and smoke coming out their ears.
You don't want to be perfectly right here, a little sloppy goes a long way.

* What do they think about voodoo. It's just a bunch of junk, isn't it.
* is it a real religion?
* Do you think the voodoo priests and priestesses are real
* Voodoo says they can make zombies for real.
* Voodoo tries to even get ANY god to make zombies, even the christian god?
* Do you think the christian god or Jesus made zombies, like in the movies?
(there is a subtle part added to the above sentence. We added "like in the movies."
some Christians are well trained apologists, we are staying prepared, just in case.
we don't want them jumping ahead, before we finished our setup.
* do you think that zombies are real?
* Say something like zombies are pretty spooky to you
* So you think there is absolutely no REAL way a zombie would exist?

Now the last step is that we want to nail down historical data
* if a zombie was ever created in the past they would still be walking around, right?
* I have never seen a zombie, have you?
* If there were a bunch of zombies walking around in history, do you think that would go unnoticed.
* I have been looking for historical stories of real zombies walking around and have not found any, have you?

Here is what we are after
1. They define what a zombie is
2. They define that a zombie can come from multiple sources including curses or magic
3. they don't believe curses and magic make zombies
4. zombies would still be walking around
5. christian god does not make zombies

The Finale
So far we have been playing it kind of neutral. We have been talking about movies, talking about "OTHER" religions. This time we are going to Christianity. It is important to note: WE ARE NOT ATTACKING. WE ARE NOT GOING AFTER THE PERSON.

We are going to use the ideas in the bible. Those ideas are our partner. Remember, we are working on deconversion. That is about using the bible, not science to be our friend. AND remember, we want the ideas in the bible to be RIGHT not wrong. Deconversion happens when they think that "if the bible is right, I am wrong". yeah bible.

So here is how we begin the finale.
I really think is great how SOME Christian's believe in zombies.
I mean it is saw awesome that they think zombies are real.
I am not sure where they get that idea from.
Do you think Christians who are big believers in the zombies
are part of the main core of Christianity,
or are the likely the weird ones on the extreme? (he he he, we are sneaky...)
I have even heard that it was in the bible. That is not right, is it?
(a sneaky loaded question, because we know the answer)

*** we let them ramble some, and get ready to set the hook to reel them in.
blah, blah, blah

Now we interrupt them .. and continue

Well you know there are zombies all over the bible in the new testament.

******** THE REVEAL********

Before you get into the biblical reveal I need to make a couple points here.
* The reason you started this dialog with this person was deconversion
* You are not trying to be an expert on the bible
* In fact, you want to be a combination of strong and sloppy
* The sloppy is more important than the strong and accurate
* Many people think that by providing accurate quotes and facts will win the case
But remember my KEY PHRASE
"If I say it, it might be true, BUT if they say it, it MUST be true"
* You want to give partial and incomplete information
* You want them to leave you without the answers
* You want them to leave you with questions and doubts
* You want them to have to look up details in the bible
* most people have busy lives and many won't even bother to look it up
* Those who do bother too look this stuff up are in for a shock
* Those who wait to look this up, get this stuff EATING THEIR BRAINS - like a zombie.
* it is a no win for them
* The look it up, they lose
* they don't look it up, they lose
* They look it up quickly, they lose quickly
* that wait to look it up, the lose slowly.

This stuff is so much fun ...
Here we go...

There are a lot of places zombies are mentioned in the bible.
As a matter of fact the bible mentions zombies directly or details of zombies in over 70 places in the new testament and just about as many in the Old testament.

In the new testament at least 6 zombies are created by name, some by Jesus and some by his crew. Most people know about all the zombies rolling around Jerusalem created when Jesus died. The bible talks about entire crowds who witnessed these zombies and written accounts of this being witnessed in the bible. The bible even mentions specifically dead people climbing out of their graves and walking around Jerusalem.

Just some fun facts to remind them. Counts about zombies or zombie related stuff.
Matthew: 8 entries
Mark: 2 entries
Luke: 6 entries
John: 8 entries
Acts: 16 entries
Cor(both): 16 entries
Rev: 6
Romans: 16 entries

And there are tons more. I kind of picked some low end numbers from these books, probably could add another 4 to 6 more to each, but not trying for overkill here.

Many people who read this kind of material will next be looking for those one or two good stories that knock it out of the park to prove your point.

PLEASE - Do not look for those one or two BEST cases. As a matter of fact if you do that you will shoot yourself in the foot and have wasted this whole exercise. I am not kidding.

Let me explain. As it stands right now, they have just been hit with 78 examples. 8+2+6+8+16+16+6+16 = 78 examples from the bible at least. That is an overwhelming number.

The next thing they are going to do is deny this. That is OK. Because the next thing following that is for them to ask you to give them some examples. YES. That is what we want - BUT - we want to give them mediocre to poor examples.

You might ask why would we want to do that. Lets give them the best examples, much more powerful. Remember, we are not in this to win the argument, we are in this for the deconversion. THEY HAVE TO DISCOVER THE BETTER CASES FOR THEMSELVES. We want to give them weaker cases also because if we give them the 2 best cases and they can rationalize their way through those on their drive home, then they can outright dismiss everything else without having to do any research, because you told them that your examples were the best. Therefore, since they could rationalize the best ones away, the others really did not matter.

By giving them mediocre ones, they have to go back and investigate for themselves, and do all kinds of research on their own. AND THEY HAVE TO PREPARE A LIST and SORT THAT LIST for us to show how their list of zombie stories can be overcome by THEIR logic.

*** They just made a list of ZOMBIE Stories.
*** They researched zombie stories in the bible and else where
*** They sorted those stories into best to least

I am not kidding they are going to want to come back to you with a list to prove to you that they are not crazy, wacko, on the fringe, and here is their logic why.

You say, sure I would love to talk with you later about this (he he he he...)
Now you need to remind them that they have to sort out the zombie stuff and the resurrection stuff out differently. And they can explain to you how they decided to sort it out (don't tell them how, you will understand later).

You say, now I am going to give you an easy one that EVERYONE KNOWS, but I am going to ask you a question after wards. I will bet I can tell you in one word and you can even tell me the story. What is that one word - "Lazarus". Yep. Told you you would know that one. This is not the best case, just a real simple one everyone knows that I don't have to convince you anything about.

Lets run though the story really simple. A ordinary guy named Lazarus dies, blah blah blah, Jesus, blah blah blah, he is alive. First this is not a resurrection story, remember, resurrection is Jesus' thing. This guy was dead, now he is undead. He has not floated up to heaven, he is just undead and will go about his daily life with his family. So this is a simple case of a zombie.

Now you might want to argue with me about the science that maybe this guy was not really dead, maybe he was just sick or something. That is not what the bible said. We are looking to the bible for our facts, we can't just make stuff up. The bible is the reference. If you want to say their are weaknesses in the Lazarus account you are opening up a whole bunch of problems with all the better stories. So you better consider Lazarus a great zombie example, even though it is not one of the better zombie facts in the bible.

If you died and a GOD makes you undead. remember, he had been dead for a while so rigormortis had already passed. Flies and maggots had eggs laid and were starting to grow, his guts and skin and eyes were beginning to rot.

The bible did not say he was restored to perfect health. No, his rotting, undead body came out of the tomb and unwrapped the strips of linen and he took off the cloth from his face. So here is the rotting undead man named Lazarus who will roam the earth for all eternity. Remember the last sentence in John 11 - "the DEAD MAN CAME OUT". the bible did not say he was given back his life, it said the dead man was now walking out.

Here is my question I told you I would ask - do you think Lazarus is still walking around undead, do you think somebody like killed and dismembered him like in the zombie movies, or do you think he just got tired and found a grave to live out the rest of his undead days.


Here is the wrap up of this routine.
Tell them you would be glad to talk with them about their thoughts on this
Ask them if they would like to talk with you later (most likely will want to)

Remember, do not go into this now, you want them to leave and think on this.
Tell them that you can't see them for at least 3 - 4 weeks.
The longer you leave them stewing on this, the better the deconversion works.

Remember all those questions we were asking in the beginning. All that movie stuff. All that vampire, voodoo stuff. We are now going to get the payoff from those questions

... So you continue with them ...
So when we get back together, I will remember how you said zombies don't exist, potions and magic, blah blah blah. Just give them back all the ideas they confirmed to you about how they don't believe in zombies
tell them that you would like to hear about how they decided which zombie stories were real in the bible and which ones were not. And which specific fact they used to tell if a person was a zombie or a resurrection because you want to be able to explain to others as well.

Well thanks for chatting with me. Look forward to talking with you next month. and send them on their way.

Remember, our objective here is deconversion. This one routine is not going to totally deconvert someone, but it will do some serious messing with their minds.
Their head is going to be ringing for days with this. They will probably have trouble sleeping until they can spend some serious time in the bible.

So I bet you are wondering what you talk about when you get together in a month. We are looking for deconversion, so guess what we are NOT going to be talking about. That's right. We are not going to be talking about zombies. Nope. no way, no how. If they get a chance to talk with you again, that is practice time for them to sharpen their belief system - we don't want that. We want their belief system shaken and weakened. They think they are going to try to convince you about differences in zombies and resurrection and whatever.
We don't care about that stuff, that is their belief system. It has to make sense to them, not us. Just tell them, that you already know what's in the bible and we already discussed your beliefs so the matter was actually closed a while ago.

Instead when you get together again, you pick one of the other deconversion topics and work on that. Remember, you have a limited amount of your own personal time. Don't waste it on arguing or having them explain stuff to you. It is their belief, keep it to themselves. When you get together with them, you want to be constantly crashing and smashing and trashing those belief systems of their with the facts of the bible, giving them tidbits of information, and making them have big homework assignments.

Think of it like a guy with a chisel and hammer on top of a giant rock. You position the chisel, swing and BING, nothing happens (visibly that is). You re-adjust, get together again, and swing, hit the chisel and BING again. (still nothing visible). All the while, tiny little cracks are ripping through the rock. Finally, one little swing, maybe even not very hard and bing, CRASH!! the entire rock cracks and crumbles and falls to pieces. So was it that first swing, the second one, or that last one. It was all of them together, that is the way deconversion happens.

this was a very long post, and if you can remember it, I think you will find it to be one of the most devastating blows in your bag. The key to most christian faith is resurrection and this is a massive blow to that part of the belief system. They still have other parts holding their beliefs together, but this is a big one.

I hope you have a lot of fun with this...


Sunday, October 25, 2009

Showdown - god vs. Startrek Q: Round 1

This article is a little lighter than my usual post. I was thinking last night, what if we were to have a showdown of gods vs. various non-gods, such as fictional or mythical characters.

**** Showdown: God of Bible vs. Star Trek Q ***
A little background on Star Trek Q for those not familiar

The character Q is a mischievous, seemingly omnipotent being. Q's power is limited only in that he cannot overcome others in the Q Continuum. Otherwise, he can do more or less whatever he wants.

Note on God used here.
There are multiple gods listed in the bible. Yahweh, Elohim and El Shaddai are the most common. I decided to go with the name Elohim, instead of the generic title "god".

=== ROUND1 ====
Task:Genesis 1:1-31

Referee holds stop watch

Announcer: In universe #1: god. In universe #2: Star trek Q.
Announcer: on your mark, get set, go ....
Announcer: lets go to universe #1,

Announcer: Here is Elohim dressed in blue sweat pants, and pink leggings
Announcer: I hope he does not plan on creating his people in THAT image!
Announcer: He is cracking his knuckles.
Announcer: What is this, he is getting out blue prints? it appears so.
Announcer: Oh, someone from his pit crew told me, he wants to get the design right.
Announcer: Ok, well lets let him get to work.

Announcer: Lets go over to Universe #2 and see how Star Trek Q is doing.
Announcer: What's this? Ladies and gentlemen he is completely done already.
Announcer: Referee, what was the time on the clock for this?
Referee: Only took an instant. Even faster than I could click the start button.
Announcer: Ref, what is doing now?
Referee: He is down there playing with his world and his people.
Announcer: So folks looks like we have a winner - Q with a time of under 1 second.
Announcer: Well, lets not call this over until the other contestant is done.
Announcer: Let's go back and see how Elohim is doing.
Announcer: So far he created a very plain ball, oh, and a light.
Announcer: Hmmm, not very far looks like.

Announcer: Lets go over to universe #2 and hang out with Q for a while.
Announcer: He usually has some good games going on.
Announcer: We can come back after lunch and see how Elohim is doing.

a little while passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well here we are back at Elohim's Universe
Announcer: He looks very busy. He is naming all this stuff
Announcer: looks like he is busy sorting stuff into categories
Announcer: Other than naming, does not look like he has gotten much done.
Announcer: Let's go back over to Q and maybe play some golf and get some dinner
Announcer: At least he has created food

a little while passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the land and seas today.
Announcer: Well lets get some sleep and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the grasses today
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the herbs and fruit trees today
Announcer: I guess he knows what he is doing, I would have put the lights on for these trees to grow first, but I guess he is comfortable working in the dark.
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the lighting system today
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

Announcer: He is really moving slow folks.
Announcer: Well lets have him give a call when he is done building so we can come check it out.
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him later...

back to the announcer....
Announcer: Well, we got a call that he is done building.
Announcer: It looks like what Q did about 6 days ago
Announcer: Folks, wait we have a message from the referee.

Referee: Elohim has asked that we not stop the clock now that he is done.
Announcer: What does he mean.
Referee: He says that he wants to rest for an entire day before we stop the clock
Announcer: Your kidding right, we can't stop it now.
Referee: No he is very serious. He want's to rest and do nothing for an entire day.
Announcer: I would have thought he might have wanted to stop the clock when he was done.
Referee: Nope, he want to stop the clock, after he sits around for an entire day.

Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Looks like he is finally done.
Announcer: Referee, what was the official time

Referee: The official time for Elohim: 168 hours, including 24 hours of siting around.
Referee: The official time for Star Trek Q: less than 1 second

Announcer: So there you have it folks
Announcer: The winner, Q
Announcer: Lapping Elohim by 168 hours.

Announcer: Ref, how is Elohim doing with the news that he lost
Referee: He looks pretty angry

Announcer: Yeah, if those folks he built don't thank him alot for all the hard word he did, I bet he will unleash a hell on them.

Referee: uh, excuse me.
Announcer: Yes?
Referee: Elohim never built a hell.
Announcer: Are you sure?
Referee: I am very sure. He showed me the blueprints and even the official documentation he put into Genesis.
Referee: I hear is going to take care of that several thousand years from now.
Referee: He is going to send down someone to create that for him.

Announcer: Who is he going to get to do that job. Nobody is going to want to get blamed for creating hell.
Announcer: Do you know who is planning on sending?
Referee: Word around town is that son his has been acting up.
Referee: I think he is planning on sending his son.
Referee: He has that smooth way of talking.

=====Well all, I hope you enjoyed this amusing tale ====


Saturday, October 24, 2009

Virgin Mary taken in Prima Nocta

First, I am making no claim to the accuracy or historicy of the idea of Prima Nocta (e.g. Braveheart; jus primae noctis is invoked by Edward Longshanks (Edward I of England) in an attempt to breed the Scots out.) Many historians dispute the practice happened, was limited, or even happened at all. see wikipedia:

Instead, I am investigating the concept with regards to Matthew 1:18-20
His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Based on the above quotation. Mary had not yet been with a man. She was planning on marrying Joseph. But before that marriage could happen or be consumated, another male stepped in and impregnated her to bear his offspring.

So here is my question. Could Mary have denied this, should this have been denied by states right as an illegal act. Should a all powerful being, the creator of Mary, have relations with one of his offspring? Would this be statutory rape - A 6000 year old with a 16 year old?
There are all kinds of interesting thoughts to ponder on this passage? Which ones are interesting to you?

What are your thoughts?

Jesus is a chimera

First lets start with a definition and look at some references
2 : an illusion or fabrication of the mind; especially : an unrealizable dream (a fancy, a chimera in my brain, troubles me in my prayer — John Donne)
3 : an individual, organ, or part consisting of tissues of diverse genetic constitution
1.a. An organism, organ, or part consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of organ transplant, grafting, or genetic engineering.
b. A substance, such as an antibody, created from the proteins or genes of two different species.
2. An individual who has received a transplant of genetically and immunologically different tissue.
3. A fanciful mental illusion or fabrication.
4. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Genetics) Biology an organism, esp a cultivated plant, consisting of at least two genetically different kinds of tissue as a result of mutation, grafting, etc.

Before we go on we need a couple more definitions
Definition of Y chromosome

Y chromosome: The sex chromosome found together with an X chromosome in most normal males. Once thought to be a genetic wasteland, the Y now is known to contain at least 20 genes, some of them unique to the Y including the male-determining gene and male fitness genes that are active only in the testis and are thought responsible for the formation of sperm. Other genes on the Y have counterparts on the X chromosome, are active in many body tissues and play crucial "housekeeping" roles with the cell.

A number of specific genes have been Y-linked including:

* ASMTY (which stands for acetylserotonin methyltransferase),
* TSPY (testis-specific protein),
* IL3RAY (interleukin-3 receptor),
* SRY (sex-determining region),
* TDF (testis determining factor),
* ZFY (zinc finger protein), PRKY (protein kinase, Y-linked),
* AMGL (amelogenin),
* CSF2RY (granulocyte-macrophage colony-stimulating factor receptor, alpha subunit on the Y chromosome),
* ANT3Y (adenine nucleotide translocator-3 on the Y),
* AZF2 (azoospermia factor 2),
* BPY2 (basic protein on the Y chromosome),
* AZF1 (azoospermia factor 1),
* DAZ (deleted in azoospermia),
* RBM1 (RNA binding motif protein, Y chromosome, family 1, member A1),
* RBM2 (RNA binding motif protein 2) and
* UTY (ubiquitously transcribed TPR gene on Y chromosome).

The Y is a useful chromosome for tracking men because it is transmitted unchanged from father to son. The Y escapes the intergenerational shuffle (recombination) that affects genes on the X chromosome and the remainder of the genome. All men have essentially the same Y chromosome. It is thought that in our small ancestral population some men had no children or only daughters, so that some Y chromosomes disappeared until only one was left. This ubiquitous Y has the same DNA in every man on earth except for the mutation that crops up every millenium and is then inherited by all males descended from that man.

And finally one more quote
Matthew 1:18-20
His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

======Now we begin the story===

As always, I want to state that a topic like this can be taken to be controversial, blasphemous, a slur, whatever. That is not my intent here. I am specifically asking my readers to consider the consequences of what they believe to be true.
I am not saying it is true or not true, I am saying "What if", then exploring the results of that conclusion. My position here is what are the facts that surround such a conclusion.

So let's start with the title "Jesus is a chimera". In order to understand such a simple 4 word sentence, means you have to understand a little science.
Most of the time you see science and the bible, someone is trying to use science to disprove the bible. I am taking the reverse position.
I am saying let's go with the idea of virgin and "what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit". Those are the facts at hand.

* Virgin explicitly means that she did not have "sexual intercourse".
* Males have an X and Y chromosome
* Females have 2 X chromosomes, and do not have a Y
* A Y chromosome comes specifically from the male
* the Y chromosome has special traits and is not a broken or modified X
* Jesus is a Male, therefor Jesus has an X and Y chromosome
* Mary contributed an X chromosome
* Joseph did not contribute the Y chromosome (explicitly stated in above story)
* Mary needed other genetic material to make an human male child
* Other genetic material was provided by "the Holy Spirit"
* "the Holy Spirit" is not human
* Matthew 1:18-20, explicitly omits Holy Spirit getting "fatherly" material from another human
* "Holy Spirit" has to use non-human origin material to fashion the Y chromosome
* The Y material source did not come from a human
* The Y material source did not have a mother (does not come from female)
* The Y material was never born as a human before Matthew 1:18-20
* The Y material was never born
* The Y material was never in a placenta
* The Y material never had a belly button
* Humans are only on earth (bible does not state them living on other planets)
* Bible does not state humans are born anywhere but earth, so humans are born on earth.
* (repeat) Y material was never born/born as a human/never lived
* Y material is not from a living human
* Y material was not extracted from a human, living or deceased
* Y material has non-human origins
* Jesus was male, so he had X and Y
* Jesus existed
* The Y material existed
* the Y material did not come from a human
* Y material could have been engineered, fabricated, extracted from other creatures, regardless not from a human
* Jesus was offspring of a human and non-human source
* Holy Spirit is not from earth but from the heavens
* The heavens are home to non-earthly beings
* A non-earthly beings are not from earth
* Non-earthly beings are visitors to earth
* Non-earthly beings have a home not on earth
* Holy Spirit and God are not from earth but from heavens
* Holy Spirit was visitor to Earth and Mary
* Non-earthly beings are called aliens to human civilization
* a bacteria on a comet would be considered to be alien bacteria on earth
* Alien does not imply little green or gray men
* Alien indicates not of earthly origin
* Y chromosome is from alien origin, or engineered by/from alien origin

Back to the earlier definition
Chimera = An organism, organ, or part consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of organ transplant, grafting, or genetic engineering.

My original title "Jesus is a chimera".
I think that is wonderful. Let's all embrace this alien-human hybrid.
We have to remember why the alien-hybrid came here. Just read his own words.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-36 NASB)

"if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)

Just wanted to help folks remember the facts of the bible and some of the science behind those facts.

Looking forward to your thoughts...


god2god: A challenge god vs. god - The idea

I thought it would be an interesting experiment to test the Null God against all the major gods. More on the Null God here.

Here is the way it works. Simple experiment set up. The results are measured a short time later (5-10 minutes). the results are recorded and posted on youtube.

A simple test:

Lets look at an example. Someone claims their god knocked down the walls of Jericho in the bible. We can make a simple test. Lets build a simple wall. We can even use children's Lego Blocks.

One wall for null god. One wall for other god. A stop watch is started, a video camera records the event. 5 minutes later. If the Lego wall is still standing, null god wins. If the other Lego wall was destroyed in fire and brimstone, then the other god wins. If other wall is still standing, shows null god was even more powerful and could prevent other god from doing anything to the wall.

What is the basic premise?
Null God. Is null, has no action. Nature works as nature. Physics, chemistry, etc all work as statistically normal. That means depending on the test, nothing could happen, something could happen that is in the normal range of expected results, or a really long shot could occur maybe even several times in a row.

Other god.
1) the specific god must be named, not just god of bible etc.
2) the specific aspects of that god must be named, what is that gods previous documented behaviour.
3) if claims are made that a name is only an aspect of the same god, then clarification of that aspect is at work must be made.
4a) Results must exceed statistical norms very significantly and must be claimed before the test is run.
4b) Test must be run with expectation of cheating, accident, or external natural intervention expected. So test must clearly show no external influence occurred. IE fan off camera blowing, or infrared heat lamp, or whatever is causing the action.
4c) Action of a god must be extraordinary in size or scope. Causing a little thing to tip over is not extraordinary. Having a Chevy car drop on it in someones living room through the roof with no-one/nothing around on a clear day, now we are talking. How about change a handful Plastic lego's into a metric ton of salt.
5) If a result happens, and a claim to an existing god is made, then 3 other gods must be substituted as the actor, and the result has to be shown coming from the specific god, not the 3 previously claimed.
6) the specific god wins the contest, when the final round of testing is conducted by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) and the god shown clearly wins the $1 million prize, showing the first well documented and scrutinized supernatural event.

Anyway, this is the idea. I have to work out the details, but I would love to see some of these challenges happen by my readers on Youtube.

I think a good way to keep this from getting out of hand. I would suggest we use Lego's or another brand of plastic building block. We can make walls, armies, floods and it is easy and scalable to easily record on video. After all, we are talking about real gods who can build universes and destroy real military armies and we are only asking them to act on little tiny plastic pieces, that should be easy.

Anyone out there ready to play. I hope everyone can come at this with an open mind. Claims about god have been around for a long time, it would be good to try to settle this matter - either way.


Friday, October 23, 2009

Nullism prayer

If you are a nullist, then you state that you believe in the null god. That is a very strong position of atheism. Regular atheism is defined as gods=0, where monotheism is defined as god=1. Nullism is defined as gods=null, or an undefined value, which has a very specific meaning in mathmatics and computer science.

Can an nullist actually make a prayer? I think to make this clearer let's look at the nature of NULL and how it interacts with the world.

1+1 = 2, pretty simple to understand.
1+0 = 1, pretty simple also
1 + null = null, not quite so simple.

why does it equal null. Think about it restated in plain English. 1 + an unknown is exactly how much? unknown. So if you take anything known and and an unknown you get an unknown result.

So if a christian and a nullist were going to pray together the resulting prayer would be nullist. Lets continue this one more, then we will put it together. If a soft sound was made and a loud sound was made, the loud sound would be heard clearly. If a loud static type sound was made and a clear sound was made, the resulting sound would be static.

Lets go back to the idea of prayer.
1. a theist calls for a prayer/time of silence, the nullist makes a lot of noise.
Result=nullist prayer succeeds
2. a theist trys to make an invocation prayer before a meeting, a bunch of nullists say a bunch of loud jibberish words, exactly as the other person is talking (on top of their words).
Result: nobody could understand the theist, the nullist had only noise in their message. People only hear noise, nullist succeeds.

So to the question of what does the nullist say in the prayer. Not critically important. What is important is the timing and loudness of the information that takes whatever was being said, and produces an effect of noise, or a null prayer.

That is a successful nullist prayer.


Wednesday, October 21, 2009

Jesus is a bastard (love child, nullius filius) ?

First, let me state this right up front.

This post is not trying to be blasphemous or insulting.

I am however, trying to investigate what people think is the right way to describe Jesus as a child of Mary, with out a human father. At least if you come from the immaculate conception, virgin birth side of Christianity.

Everybody I know and have talked to over the years describes Jesus as a child of Mary born of virgin birth. I have really started down the path of the real bible, looking at it content from different perspectives and most importantly, the idea of concision. Concision is all about finding concise and quality ways of expressing information.

Trying to say something like - Jesus is a child of an unwed woman, and impregnated by a non-human (Angel, God, whatever). "His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 1:18)

Here is the question I am trying to answer. How do you express Matthew 1:18 in a concise way, 6 words or less total, starting with "Jesus is a..." . Convey the same information, with quality, and not being wordy.

So I started with some research on my first attempt at concision.

Jesus is a __________.

We try to answer that phrase with a maximum of 3 words in the blank space, preferably 2 words.

So here are some of the possibilities based on thesaurus entries.

For the idea of virgin birth we get...
Jesus is a ...
love child
bar sinister
fruit of adultery
illegitimate child
natural child
nullius filius
spurious offspring
Sunday's child

From the idea that jesus did not have a human father ...
Jesus is a ...

So here is the question I pose to my readers. How do we answer this statement concisely?

"Jesus is a ...."

Looking forward to everyone's ideas.


Monday, October 19, 2009

Decon: 4 - Tell Christians you LOVE the 10 Commandments

Ready to fry some Christian's brains.

I love de-converting folks. Remember, the most powerful and fastest way to deconvert is not to argue, but to agree, but mess with their minds. Especially, to get them thinking and having to go directly to the bible themselves. Remember, the bible is the biggest ally is getting a deconversion to happen.

Ask 99% of Christians to name a few of the REAL 10 commandments. The ones that were actually given to the people. Not the commandments that were not smashed and never spread around, but the real ones on stone tables that the people ACCEPTED.

I will bet you will hear things like thou shalt not steal, or no coveting, etc.

You then say SORRY. Nope you are completely wrong.

Those commandments were never accepted and they were busted up on the ground. A few people heard about those, but nobody agreed to them. Moses, later went back up the mountain to get another set of commandments. And those commandments were accepted and became the official 10 commandments.

They were even identified specifically as the ten commandments in the bible. In other places they were called commandments and judgments, but not specifically 10 commandments. (although some versions of the bible sprinkle that phrase around their text, but not in original language)

Now ask them again, what were the commandments that were accepted. That all Christians who believe that Jesus came to fulfill the covenants of the old testament. That even Jesus accepted because they are the ones that were accepted by the people.

(it is important to state Jesus would have accepted, early in the conversation, before you share the facts. It is setting in the "Christian" hook. Otherwise, they will try to wiggle out later. You want agreement early.)

I bet they will again come up some other thou shalt not graven images, thou shalt not commit. NOPE, still wrong.

This is where you deliver a crushing blow to the Christians faith. You actually tell them about the whoring, and god owns your first born child, and all the other good stuff you find quoted below.

Don't quote everything to them, just give them some juicy tidbits. Give them the colorful words and ideas. Best of all it is right there in exodus for them to look up to prove it to themselves. It is only a short 14 sections later in exodus 34. The stuff in exodus 20 was destroyed, so they need to get their faith squared away to the facts of the bible.

and then you walk away ....
he he he he ....
watch the little birdies fly around their head, like you conked em on the head with a frying pan.

I am sure they will WANT to talk with you again.
and you can help them even further their deconversion with more bible facts.

Enjoy all,


Remember, you don't deconvert with science, you deconvert with the bible.

=== Notes from the bible and quotes ===

As Moses communed with God on the mountain above, Aaron built a Golden Calf on the ground below. When Moses returned and discovered what his brother had done, violating two of the new commandments that had been previously announced, he angrily smashed the tablets.

God followed up the renewal of the covenant with another set of commandments but they were very different, as we will see. First let’s examine the concluding instruction.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. (Ex. 34:27-28.)

For the first time the bible specifically refers to the “Ten Commandments” and says that Moses wrote them on the stone tablets. In the opening of this passage we were told that the tablets would contain the very words that were on the broken tablets.

Then follows the new set of commandments and a concluding statement that these are the Ten Commandments.

1. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

2. Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of in gathering at the year’s end.

7. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

(Ex. 34:12-26.)

These then, at least according to the bible, are the true Ten Commandments, and they differ radically from the commandments verbally announced in Ex. 20 and Deu. 5.

Sunday, October 18, 2009

Decon: 3 - God kills 42 kids for calling a guy bald

This one I have to thank one of my podcasts for bringing to my attention. I am not a bible scholar, heck I am barely a bible surfer. But I love a good quote.

When you are chatting with some one. Tell them you heard about this religion when there was this guy who was going up a mountain. Then a couple of kids start teasing the guy for having a bald head. So the guy does prayer and their god comes down and kills not just the 2 kids, but them and 40 more kids. And does not just kill them humanely, but instead calls upon 2 female bears to tear up those 42 kids into bits.

Can you imagine a religion where that is the proper punishment for being called bald. Most importantly, all the people who died before, were supposed to be hanging out with that god and felt he was great. What was interesting for hundreds of years, folks still thought that was a great god and wanted to still say how great he was for all eternity.

Now ask them...
Do you think that killing kids is good punishment for calling someone bald?
Do you think that god was "fair and just" to kill an additional 40 kids?
Do you think the kids should have been killed more humanely, or are 2 bears a good use of power to answer a prayer about being called a bald?

With all the crazy gods that are out there, can you guess which one did this?

the answer - "Yours!". Yep this is from the bible.
Just leave it there. And let them ponder it.
When you go to heaven, remember to tell god you supported his decision.

I will give the details below, but don't share it with them.
Make them go to the bible and look it up for themselves

Elisha and the Two Bears (2 Kings 2:23-25)
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

have fun with this...


Decon: 2 - Bear false witness missing

This is a short one.
Just ask the person to name the commandments.

Ask them if their bible contains the phrase
(Rom 13:9) "Thou shalt not bear false witness."

It is present in the King James Version (KJV) but that is missed entirely in
New International, New American Standard, and New World Translation.

There are a whole bunch of other citations you can offer for them to compare.

You can find a lot of these to mess with them. Have fun...


Nullism has Decons

I was fiddling around with a couple ideas. Two ideas synthesized at the same time.
One idea I was working on is if Nullism as going to be strategically considered a religion for political and cultural reasons, what would we call the leaders.
Originally I was thinking of calling them Cardinals, as in the highest position below pope in catholicism but then it hit me.

Lets call the Decons! as in de-convert, de-conversion.

That brought such a huge smile to my face. A christian was deconverted from their religion by a decon.

Decon: 1 - Not Monotheistic - Yahweh vs Elohim

What is the fastest way to get someone to lose their faith. Simple, break up the foundation.
I have heard tons and tons and tons of atheists trying to argue why the flood did not happen, or how genesis is wrong. The problem is that they can fight these all day long, the issue is that to an atheist this might seem like the foundation, but it is not. These stories are built ON THE FOUNDATION.

Remember, our job is not to convert them to atheism or nullism, it is to help them during their deconversion from their faith.

Todays lesson: Decon: 1 - Not Monothistic - Yahweh vs Elohim
One of the fundamental tenants of christian and Abrahamic religions is they are based on "one god". The reality is that the bible is not based on "one" god. Your job is to simply see that fact of the bible. In traditional arguing it is important to have every single on of your facts, locked down and tight with no room for movement.

In this case, we want slop or slack in our discussion. In fact, even having some small errors for them to fact check are important (remember, we want them to go to the bible and check out our passages). If you bring a photocopy of the section and read it to them word for word to prove your point, you actually are losing major points. now if you are arguing a scholar on stage, then that is different, but you should not be doing that. We are working on the front lines, with the everyday person on the street and church.

So why don't we want all the answers, perfectly and exactly. 1. We want to present them with enough information to create some doubt, 2) we don't give them all the facts because we want them to have doubts about the doubts, 3) we know people are lazy and won't bother to look up the facts we gave them so they will carry the doubts with them for the rest of their life and 4) best of all, when they do look up the facts they will see we were right all along, and they have been wrong all this time. Now feeling guilty about not looking this up earlier. Doubt and Guilt are powerful tools in the decons tool box.

===The lesson: Bible is not monotheistic===
Let's get ready to play with some minds. First the underlying premise is that the bible is monotheistic. This gives people a lot of power in their statements like "one nation under god", "in god we trust", "the trinity is one god", whatever.

What we are going to be doing is having a conversation with a person, not a debate. Forget debating. Let me repeat that, forget debating. Forget arguing your point.

The first thing we have to do is find something to say positive and take a position on their side. I would recommend you come from the position of integrity and not lie about your belief, but find a way to state something consistent.

Here is a sample conversation between a decon and Mary:
decon: Mary, did you know that the bible explicitly states there are multiple gods. As a matter of fact is says is many times and in many places throughout the bible. Even god in his own words explicitly declares that there are other gods.
Mary: yeah, but my pastor has told me that our god is the one TRUE god.
Decon: That's interesting, they did not say they were the only god. Have you ever thought why they said true god. Even if they said all the other gods were false gods, that does not deny the existence of those gods.
Now what if your pastor went further and said that there is NO OTHER GODS - period. Well then you better think about that pastor. Because they have just called their god a liar. And called him a liar directly to his face and in front of you as a witness. Think about that, your pastor called god a liar, that is right your pastor called god a liar. Not only did he do that, he knew that because it is clearly written by god. Why do you think your pastor would lie to you?
Mary: I don't know. What would make you say he lied? what proof is in the bible?
Decon: Well how about in genesis when god says to Adam that he will no longer be one of "us". did you catch that, god specifically said one of us. Remember, before adam there was nothing but God, unless you we going to consider the us meant animals, or dirt or something. I bet you don't think he meant that? remember in genesis, he had not created the spirit realm, he would have listed that as being created before the universe, but he specifically does not state that. So that means the adam is not someone from the angel or spiritual realm because that has not been created yet. I bet you don't think adam would be considered on of us as being from the earth, because god was still creating that. So I think is pretty clear just from that statement, that god says even in the beginning there were other gods. how many gods are in the 10 commandments?
Mary: Well that's silly. there is only one god!
Decon: are you sure? Before we go any further, do you think the 10 commandments were written by the hand of god and were given to Moses?
Mary: of course.
Decon: Just to confirm one more time, you absolutely think the 10 commandments were written and given to moses?
Mary: Yes, that is what I said.
Decon: Ok, I just wanted to ask you one question. Why did god explicitly state there were others gods in the very first commandment. Not only did god write this in his very own hand, he did not say that he is all alone and there were no other gods. He specifically did not say he was alone. God made a very strong point that he was not the only god. And he could have made that point absolutely clear and unambiguous with absolutely no certainty.
So you understand, in his very own hand, god said he is not alone. He is not the only god. He even further did not specifically deny the other gods, but said, that he should be considered in the number one position, with all the other gods behind him. His statement in the commandments, does not say there are no other gods, it only argues that how you should sort the other gods, and where he should be placed in that list. This is the second time god has specifically shown that there are other gods. Not other gods in general, or even fake, ficticious gods, but infact real gods. Because he said these other gods that exist just have to be behind him in the sorting order.
Yes, the commandments next talk about not worshipping idols and how that is not looked upon kindly. But look closely. You of course know the commandments are written down 3 different times with 3 slightly different versions. But EVERY SINGLE ONE of those versions DID NOT SAY that you should not worship other GODS. It said in each case, you should not worship idols. God was totally ok with worshiping other gods. No worshiping idols - that is stated clearly 3 times. But is absolutely clear about not taking away from worshiping his fellow gods.
Mary: yeah, but ....
Decon: Let me ask you this which god in the bible do you believe in? What is his name? There are multiple gods listed in the bible with significant differences. Remember, god is not a name it is a title. so is Lord and Christ, those are titles. When you want to talk about believing in a god you need to be specific.
The gods of the bible have many battles and disagreements. So before we go any further with this conversation you better get each of the gods straightened out. Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai. Even in things like Noah's flood, Elohim and Yahweh both say they caused Noah's flood. One god says it was 40 days, the other god says it was 150 days. As a matter of fact, both gods fight over the number of pairs of animals to be brought on board.
I don't ask you to believe me. Look it up yourself.

(now we end our conversation here)
You will note that we gave very little specifics her. Preferably little or no direct quotes from the bible. I was even hesitant to list what little I did in the above. We have one key objective here, to plant SEEDS of doubt. Not proof. It is absolutely critical that they begin going to the bible and having to read it themselves, not get spoon-fed answers from some other person. The bible is your ally.

Have fun with this, it is not a battle, but some fun interactions....